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Thread: Vinton County - Stone-Quarry Road

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    Vinton County - Stone-Quarry Road

    BillK(OMTA Pres.) said the 3 County Commisioners ‘voted 2 to one to advertise a viewing, and a hearing, for March’ – which means QuarryRd will be going thru the legal public process of being vacated/closed. If vacated, jeeps wont be allowed any more - ODNR(they said!) will allow only 62inch or narrower APVs.
    .
    Once I get road-viewing & courthouse/township-hearing dates, I will post here.
    -Norm

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    What is sad is that Vinton is one of the poorest counties in Ohio yet they insist on driving away chances for revenue. Just look at out-of-state examples with Black Mountain (Harlan, Ky), the Hatfield-McCoy trails systems in WV, Windrock in TN, etc, etc.... which cater to the off-road crowd and have provided a lot of money to those areas.
    Brad
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    I think that this is something we need to get out on Facebook to some of the other groups because I don't think anybody has a clue as to what is going on

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    KevinM, BillK and I have given to ODNR - info/links of IndianaDNR offroad areas (eg. Redbird), and mentioned Harlan, Hatfield+McCoy, and others - but ODNR wont explain why they wont do something similar.
    -Norm

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    I wonder if we need to go "over the head" of ODNR and send letters/calls to representatives and/or Kasich, as they like "jobs" perhaps more than ODNR head does?
    Alan
    Black 06 Rubicon TJ
    Latest: Beadlocks
    Intentional: 2" spacer lift, 1" body+engine, 34 LTBs, Kilby gas tank skid, steering box skid, JKS swaybar disconnects, Kilby rocker guard/steps, Kilby front bumper, Smittybilt XRC8 comp winch, Durango Generator, Iron Rock Offroad control arms.
    Forced stuff: JKS adjustable front upper control arms, Delete fog lamps, On-trail body mods for greater clearance (ie Dents).
    Next: flat belly skid, 35+?, re-attach fog lights?

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    I will go to the meeting if someone can let me know when it is.
    Paul

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    1984 CJ 7 on 36's
    1993 GMC K3500 6.5 Turbo Diesel

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    Going over anyones head takes time - we only have until :
    Monday Mar.13 at 10am is a Vinton County Commisioners meeting at the McArthur courthouse(unless they move it to a bigger room).
    &
    Thursday Mar.23 at 11am at the wooden-bridge at start of Stone-QuarryRd - road 'viewing' with commissioners/trustees.
    and then at 2pm same day at McArthur Courthouse is the 'hearing' for the road - Commisioners vote to vacate/close it -or- leave it open for Jeeps/street-legals.
    -Norm

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    Norm- we still going to the meeting on the 13th? if so, car pool?
    Paul

    1976 CJ 5 on 37s
    1984 CJ 7 on 36's
    1993 GMC K3500 6.5 Turbo Diesel

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    Yesterday after lunch, my co-worker told me hes on vaca all next week - so I must be at work all week - I cannot go on 13th. Co-worker knows of my 23rd date - he said he is working that day - so I can be away.
    -Norm

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    sounds like you are calling off sick to me.....
    Paul

    1976 CJ 5 on 37s
    1984 CJ 7 on 36's
    1993 GMC K3500 6.5 Turbo Diesel

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    I plan to go Monday to the courthouse meeting...
    coming from Granville area

    Alan
    Alan
    Black 06 Rubicon TJ
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    Intentional: 2" spacer lift, 1" body+engine, 34 LTBs, Kilby gas tank skid, steering box skid, JKS swaybar disconnects, Kilby rocker guard/steps, Kilby front bumper, Smittybilt XRC8 comp winch, Durango Generator, Iron Rock Offroad control arms.
    Forced stuff: JKS adjustable front upper control arms, Delete fog lamps, On-trail body mods for greater clearance (ie Dents).
    Next: flat belly skid, 35+?, re-attach fog lights?

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    My co-worker is NOT in today either - hes on his way to Florida - so Im the lone 'software migrator' for the next 9 days (Im on-call for evenings too).
    .
    If you want to speak at the County meeting, you may need to inform them by calling 740-596-4571
    If a huge turn-out, they may move the meeting to a larger room. Vinton Courthouse is at intersection of rt.93 and rt.50, in McArthur,OH.
    -Norm

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    Guys, I can't go tomorrow. I have to go to one of my sites in Kentucky. Sorry
    Paul

    1976 CJ 5 on 37s
    1984 CJ 7 on 36's
    1993 GMC K3500 6.5 Turbo Diesel

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    In looking at the notice posted by OhioOffRoad, I do not see "Quarry Rd" listed as any of the roads involved.
    Is it in there by another name?
    If I end up trying to speak at the meeting, I don't want to sound like an idiot more than I need to...


    Edit: I found what looks to be a great map that uses the same names/terms used in the above notice.
    http://www.giscarto.com/mg/albums/co..._co_oh_map.pdf

    So what does one say here? Don't take away my playground?
    It does seem ODNR parks are closed in the winter, and we ride all year.. can that make it better for our case?

    Alan
    Last edited by alancurtis2; 03-12-2017 at 07:26 PM.
    Alan
    Black 06 Rubicon TJ
    Latest: Beadlocks
    Intentional: 2" spacer lift, 1" body+engine, 34 LTBs, Kilby gas tank skid, steering box skid, JKS swaybar disconnects, Kilby rocker guard/steps, Kilby front bumper, Smittybilt XRC8 comp winch, Durango Generator, Iron Rock Offroad control arms.
    Forced stuff: JKS adjustable front upper control arms, Delete fog lamps, On-trail body mods for greater clearance (ie Dents).
    Next: flat belly skid, 35+?, re-attach fog lights?

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    Quote Originally Posted by clarknorm View Post
    Going over anyones head takes time - we only have until :
    Monday Mar.13 at 10am is a Vinton County Commisioners meeting at the McArthur courthouse(unless they move it to a bigger room).
    &
    Thursday Mar.23 at 11am at the wooden-bridge at start of Stone-QuarryRd - road 'viewing' with commissioners/trustees.
    and then at 2pm same day at McArthur Courthouse is the 'hearing' for the road - Commisioners vote to vacate/close it -or- leave it open for Jeeps/street-legals.
    Yea, I wasn't so much thinking of this particular event, but more of a longer term campaign to turn ODNR into a more 4x4 Truck friendly organization.
    Alan
    Alan
    Black 06 Rubicon TJ
    Latest: Beadlocks
    Intentional: 2" spacer lift, 1" body+engine, 34 LTBs, Kilby gas tank skid, steering box skid, JKS swaybar disconnects, Kilby rocker guard/steps, Kilby front bumper, Smittybilt XRC8 comp winch, Durango Generator, Iron Rock Offroad control arms.
    Forced stuff: JKS adjustable front upper control arms, Delete fog lamps, On-trail body mods for greater clearance (ie Dents).
    Next: flat belly skid, 35+?, re-attach fog lights?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alancurtis2 View Post
    In looking at the notice posted by OhioOffRoad, I do not see "Quarry Rd" listed as any of the roads involved.
    Is it in there by another name?
    If I end up trying to speak at the meeting, I don't want to sound like an idiot more than I need to...


    Edit: I found what looks to be a great map that uses the same names/terms used in the above notice.
    http://www.giscarto.com/mg/albums/co..._co_oh_map.pdf

    So what does one say here? Don't take away my playground?
    It does seem ODNR parks are closed in the winter, and we ride all year.. can that make it better for our case?

    Alan
    We always called it Quarry or Stone Quarry because that's the name of it where it meets 50. It's actually Deer Run and Mead on the 2001 map, didn't try to figure out why it switches names.
    The other one they are vacating we never run. I actually thought it had already been vacated. I think it's in Fred Ericson's I think that's his name) backyard and meets up with 26 (26 actually meets up at the creek crossing). If I remember correctly, 26 was vacated at Fred Ericson's property line, though I can't remember who told me that. I'm guessing ODNR is just trying to make sure all legal ways into the Vinton Furnace area are vacated.
    I have no suggestions on what to say.1.jpg2.jpg

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    I forgot to mark Mead on the legend above, it's 3 names under the last one (Jamison, which is 26)

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    Based on my map... 26 is in Vinton County and goes NW into a non-state forest chunk of property at the end of Fred Erickson Rd, where it ends.
    22 goes from the northern property line of that chunk, which is also the southern border of Madison Twp, north into Madison county, and is called Flat Run Rd where it hits 50.
    It looks to me like Madison Twp is abandoning the "southern most" 1.25 miles of that.. if, as you wonder, they haven't already.

    Thanks for the translation...

    I plan to go, and see if I can speak, with some hope of coming up with something intelligent, or at least not stupid, to say.
    Alan
    Alan
    Black 06 Rubicon TJ
    Latest: Beadlocks
    Intentional: 2" spacer lift, 1" body+engine, 34 LTBs, Kilby gas tank skid, steering box skid, JKS swaybar disconnects, Kilby rocker guard/steps, Kilby front bumper, Smittybilt XRC8 comp winch, Durango Generator, Iron Rock Offroad control arms.
    Forced stuff: JKS adjustable front upper control arms, Delete fog lamps, On-trail body mods for greater clearance (ie Dents).
    Next: flat belly skid, 35+?, re-attach fog lights?

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    Thank you Alan for going and fighting for us. I tried to get the day off to drive over but it wasn't in the cards this week.
    94 4runner SAS Elocked 35's "Fiona"
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    We do NOT want the road 'vacated'/closed - we do NOT want ODNR to make their new APV-park (because Jeeps are NOT APVs, according to ODNRs rule/law).
    Keeping the road open as is (not 'vacated'/closed) means we can still drive our street-legal Jeeps on the still legal road.
    ***Thx for going!!! I emaied to you, Alan, what I sent to Paul - what I was going to say at the meeting.
    -Norm

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    I too was un able to attend today, any updatesd?

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    Having never ever been to anything like a county commissioners meeting I had no idea what to expect.

    Norm had said that if you want to speak at the meeting you'd have to let them know, so on the way down I called the number he provided. After dealing with their interactive voice response system (Ie "if you know your party's extension, press it, or listen to a long list of extensions...) I got connected to the County Commissioners phone line. And had to leave a message. I had arranged to call when I thought I had good coverage, so at least the message I left was clear enough for Cathy(?) to call me back. Between the poor coverage I now had, and me not really knowing what I was even "signing up for", I ended up with an appointment to talk to the Commissioners at 11. Cathy(?) said something about the 10am meeting probably being cancelled.

    At this point I started planning on having a calzone at Mama Rene's afterward, but it was not to be.

    I got to the courthouse, through the metal detector, and found Cathy(?) in the Commissioner's office. She showed me where I'd meet the Comm's at 11. I then retreated to the lobby to wait, wishing I'd brought my Kindle to read. I figured while I was here I might as well pick up a new Vinton County Engineer road map, just in case it's newer than something Norm already has (it's not). Reading this for a few minutes and Cathy(?) comes out and says the Comm's have a few minutes now if I don't think it will take long. As I walk into the meeting, I'm thinking it's going to be just me and the 3 Comm's, when I see a pair of Friendly faces! Jim and Leslie Chacey are there, though sitting in the very back row. I try to sit in the front row, but no no no, I "get" to sit at the table across from the Comm's, who then officially call the meeting to order and start (I think) recording.

    Introductions..blah blah.. I'm representing Ohio 4x4 Trailriders.. blah blah blah..

    I said we like driving on those roads, and that there are fewer and fewer places we can go, and it doesn't seem right to take more of a rare resource away to provide yet another common ATV park, and saying that at a minimum they should try to use the leverage of not closing the road to get ODNR to allow Jeeps/Samies/pickups/etc, and one of the Comms apologizes for interrupting me, but goes on to say that ODNR told them in a conference call that the park is being built with Federal grant money that specifically says "ATVs/Motorcycles/etc" only, no Jeeps or trucks. All three of the Comms agreed that this was the state of things.

    We have what I considered a nice discussion, with no real chance of "progress", given they felt they had no choices. I recall a specific comment of "we have only 'yes' or 'no' available to us. That is the extent of our power". All 3 Comms basically said they'd love to include Jeeps/etc, and want Jeeps/etc, but the grant rules slam the door on that. They all say they fought hard and managed to get unlimited vehicle width and horsepower, to both satisfy the "big" ATV folks and perhaps hope that in the future they could try to be all inclusive. I found it interesting how they managed to claim "no power to negotiate" and "managed to negotiate for.." within a few minutes of each other, but since they believe they've negotiated for everything that they could possible get (due to the grant saying "no jeeps"), it isn't as conflicted as it appears.

    I believe they don't want to exclude us, but view themselves has having pushed as far as the terms of the grant will allow. They also feel that in the best interests of Vinton County, they cannot "walk away" from park in a fight over "jeeps". They do say they might have more leverage in future plans, as ODNR wants to try and make the trail accessible from town (presumably using the 35mph road rule, or some more ODNR land that gets to town).

    The Commissioner who owns a jeep, and who had previously said that the other Commissioners weren't as "jeep friendly" as he is was also trying to walk that back some by saying how hard all 3 of them tried to get ODNR to include "jeeps".

    They still encouraged us and/or anyone interested to attend next week's viewing and meeting.
    They also noted that this will not be the only "legal notice" for this project, since this legal notice was only for the roads in Madison Twp, and there will have to be other roads in other townships before it's all done.

    The viewing will be "at the bridge", which I assume folks who rember trails well enough to lead them know what this means.

    After the meeting Jim, Leslie and I met 3 others in the lobby who asked how the meeting went. They turned out to be the people Norm and Kevin(?) talked to during the last Quarry ride. I din't catch (or at least don't rember) their names.

    Jim, Leslie and I then headed up to the Hocking County Engineer's office to pick up some Hocking maps on the way home.
    After looking at the Vinton and Hocking maps for a few minutes I wished I had a Map of Athens county as well... and it was only 30 minutes away, so thus began my tour of county engineer offices. I stopped and got a few maps at Vinton, Hocking, Athens, Perry, Muskingum, and Licking. I will have to look at them each carefully, as some of the maps have interesting sounding map legends entries of "township road (unmaintained)" and "township road (impassible)" and "township road (abandoned)". I specifically asked about "abandoned" that was on the Licking map: it is only maintenance that is abandoned, but specifically it has not be vacated. I asked if one could still legally drive a jeep on the road, and he had to agree that legally you could, but that you might run into some people who thought they owned that land....so be careful".

    Other "engineers" (who's maps had nothing "worse" than "township road") indicated that they did have some "class-X" roads, but that no one had any idea where they were. Said things like "ODOT comes along for mileage and says things like '1.2 miles from the intersection with Road blahblah" and it counts in their "road mileage" but they have only old hand drawn records, if that, for where they are. In short, the din't seem to be very interested in helping me find interesting road right-of-ways for me to go have fun.

    Net, I think not a whole lot was accomplished, other than to learn about this "grant stipulation" of "no jeeps", and to remind the commissioners that we exist, and they we're likely to have to take our $$ elsewhere as they get swayed by what they perceive as a larger $$ pot by going with ODNR on this. It seems nearly certain that come the 23rd, all 3 will vote to vacate those roads. The Ohio Code says they should vote to vacate if:

    (D) After the public hearing, if the board of county commissioners determines that the vacation of the road or portion of the road would be for the public convenience or welfare, it shall adopt a resolution by a majority vote declaring the road or portion to be vacated and file a certified copy of the resolution with the petitioner board of township trustees, the county recorder, and the county engineer.

    And they certainly feel that way now, viewing the ODNR project as more valuable than the loss of Jeeps/etc from these roads.
    As for when the road is no longer driveable, I'm not sure if we'll get one last run at Quarry in April or not:

    (E) Once the certified copies of the resolution declaring a road or portion of a road vacated are filed as provided in division (D) of this section, the board of township trustees, by resolution, shall order the road or portion of the road vacated.

    So I guess it's up to how long it takes to file the paperwork and when the township trustees have their next meeting...

    Wish I had better news....
    Last edited by alancurtis2; 03-13-2017 at 09:43 PM.
    Alan
    Black 06 Rubicon TJ
    Latest: Beadlocks
    Intentional: 2" spacer lift, 1" body+engine, 34 LTBs, Kilby gas tank skid, steering box skid, JKS swaybar disconnects, Kilby rocker guard/steps, Kilby front bumper, Smittybilt XRC8 comp winch, Durango Generator, Iron Rock Offroad control arms.
    Forced stuff: JKS adjustable front upper control arms, Delete fog lamps, On-trail body mods for greater clearance (ie Dents).
    Next: flat belly skid, 35+?, re-attach fog lights?

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    What is a very good description of how the meeting went and I thank you for relaying the message.

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    So, Jeff D should be good to go with his buggy then....

    Thanks for going, representing and reporting Alan!!!

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    No - JeffD may be in worse shape than us Jeepers (if no title).
    ODNR (& WayneNatlF) require a state 'permit' - you must take your 'title' to auto BMV office to get vehicle registered in BMV computer & buy a permit. No 'title' = no permit for ODNR (& Wayne). To get a title if there isn't one - means Trooper inspection for street-legal worthiness. AND, there is NO non-street-legal process to get a off-road only title.
    Is this right, Donnie?
    Last edited by clarknorm; 03-14-2017 at 12:50 PM.
    -Norm

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    Here is a link to ODNR "trail" grants in 2016, including one for various counties (not including Vinton) for:

    This project will cover the APV areas that are managed
    by the ODNR Division of Forestry. The project includes
    routine maintenance: grading, trail improvement, sign
    repair, trailhead improvements and some new trail
    construction.

    http://realestate.ohiodnr.gov/portal...P%20Awards.pdf

    I bet this grant for Vinton county park is under this program, and not yet awarded.
    I do not know if if/how there is a federal grant "behind this" funding it..
    The main page
    http://realestate.ohiodnr.gov/outdoo...acility-grants
    Does make reference to "Up to 80 percent matching federal funds is reimbursed." whatever that means...

    It looks like this would be through this federal program: https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment...tional_trails/

    I see ZERO evidence of any "apv only" crap at these levels.
    Of course if someone wrote a proposal that said "apv only" and that was granted as written, then it would be APV only.
    Subject, of course, to ODNR changing the rules of what an APV is...
    and somehow including dual-sport motorcycles while eliminating dual-sport vehicles.

    I want to show up with a modified Jeep that only has two really really wide tires down the middle and call it a dual sport motorcycle....

    alan

    alan
    Alan
    Black 06 Rubicon TJ
    Latest: Beadlocks
    Intentional: 2" spacer lift, 1" body+engine, 34 LTBs, Kilby gas tank skid, steering box skid, JKS swaybar disconnects, Kilby rocker guard/steps, Kilby front bumper, Smittybilt XRC8 comp winch, Durango Generator, Iron Rock Offroad control arms.
    Forced stuff: JKS adjustable front upper control arms, Delete fog lamps, On-trail body mods for greater clearance (ie Dents).
    Next: flat belly skid, 35+?, re-attach fog lights?

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    Quote Originally Posted by clarknorm View Post
    No - JeffD may be in worse shape than us Jeepers (if no title).
    ODNR (& WayneNatlF) require a state 'permit' - you must take your 'title' to auto BMV office to get vehicle registered in BMV computer & buy a permit. No 'title' = no permit for ODNR (& Wayne). To get a title if there isn't one - means Trooper inspection for street-legal worthiness. AND, there is NO non-street-legal process to get a off-road only title.
    Is this right, Donnie?
    I wonder if getting it titled in another state first would help.. or hurt?

    4505.061 Physical inspection certificate of motor vehicle last previously registered in another state.
    If the application for a certificate of title refers to a motor vehicle last previously registered in another state, the application shall be accompanied by a physical inspection certificate issued by the department of public safety verifying the make, body type, model, and manufacturer's vehicle identification number of the motor vehicle for which the certificate of title is desired. The physical inspection certificate shall be in such form as is designated by the registrar of motor vehicles.

    This inspection only seems to want to validate that it is the vehicle that the title belongs to... I wonder what ohio does with a VIN of "N/A" on a title

    alan

    PS I gotta stop reading laws.. I'm starting to not be able to think anymore.
    Alan
    Black 06 Rubicon TJ
    Latest: Beadlocks
    Intentional: 2" spacer lift, 1" body+engine, 34 LTBs, Kilby gas tank skid, steering box skid, JKS swaybar disconnects, Kilby rocker guard/steps, Kilby front bumper, Smittybilt XRC8 comp winch, Durango Generator, Iron Rock Offroad control arms.
    Forced stuff: JKS adjustable front upper control arms, Delete fog lamps, On-trail body mods for greater clearance (ie Dents).
    Next: flat belly skid, 35+?, re-attach fog lights?

  29. #29
    Member Jr. Forum Member Ron505's Avatar
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    If the vehicle is from a state that issues titles to off road vehicles (WV), it must first be titled there (taxes paid), then the title can be transferred here. If it is a no title issued state (KY), a bill of sale and VIN inspection at the BMV should be able to get you a title.

    I just went through this before purchase my MX bike.

  30. #30
    Member Ohio 4x4 Member
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    ArmyGuy's Avatar
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    "Does make reference to "Up to 80 percent matching federal funds is reimbursed." whatever that means..."

    This means that if Federal Grant funds are received for a project, the state may/can match up to 80% of the Federal grant. Example...$10,000 Fed grant for saving the whales could result in $8,000 in matching State funds for saving the whales, giving the project a total of $18,000.

    On to the important stuff:
    If the club wanted to slow the process of vacating the road, an attorney should be hired who could do the following:

    Step one. File a preliminary injunction against the commissioners decision until the validity of the decision is determined. This has to be filed by an attorney on behalf of a client (OH 4x4). If this is filed, it will delay the commissioners decision for a while. The attorney could likely request 90 days.

    Step two. Conduct a feasibility study, conducted by an independent firm, for best use of the road or future trail system. The club would likely have to pay for this, and the attorney would have to explain this plan when filing the preliminary injunction or during the public hearing. Without a study to validate a decision, it is unlikely the final outcome would change.

    That's all I can tell you at this point. I am not an attorney, but I work with one who did township legal stuff.
    Doug
    96 Wrangler
    39" Boggers
    454
    Tons w/lockers
    12000lb Badland extraction device
    Custom "scratch & dent" bodywork

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